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 Post subject: Re: Cliff Richard - ?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:12 am 
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Rich Kid wrote:
geezer466 wrote:
The trial was held at Southwark Crown Court
How many of that 12 do you reckon had a good enough grasp of English to officiate the role with due dilligence?

What are you trying to imply geezer? I trust there isn't a touch of racism creeping in here. If you're now questioning the jury then you're moving into a new ball game; from attacking the media you're now attacking our legal process. The defence can and often do have a say into the composition of a jury and the defence were obviously content to proceed with the case on the basis of the jury members chosen.


Many citizens/immigrants both recent and and those who have been here long term long term have problems with the language, this is well documented.

No matter if they are from Eritrea or Poland. It is as straw man argument to try and introduce racism into this. Defence only have strict criteria in how they can challenge members of any given jury, their ability to speak or understand good English is not part of this challenge procedure. The defence do not even know if they can speak the language as they do not converse, the only one whom ever speaks is the foreperson who delivers the verdict.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rules.html

Quote:
Jurors who cannot read English are being invited to decide the outcome of criminal trials.

Inability to understand the written language is no bar to serving on a jury, officials said.

Even those who cannot easily understand the spoken word could be asked to sit in judgment on those accused of crime.


Quote:
The 200,000 people a year called for jury service are now all summoned with letters printed in seven languages as well as English to ‘encourage’ non-English speakers, it said.



Quote:
Dr David Green, of the Civitas think-tank, said: ‘If you can’t even read the letter summoning you for jury service, you are not fit to be a juror.’


Those of us who read the full court transcripts can easily see the verdict was perverse. Juries have been known to get it wrong before sending innocent people to the gallows and this was before the advent of multi cultarism political correctness.


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 Post subject: Re: Cliff Richard - ?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:30 am 
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I agree with Dr David Green.


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 Post subject: Re: Cliff Richard - ?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:03 am 
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Jon wrote:
I agree with Dr David Green.
So do I.

At the risk of changing the subject, I have sat on a jury where some of the members, who appeared to be indigenous Brits, had difficulty following the case; and therefore were at a severe disadvantage when assessing and discussing the case in the jury room. At least two female jury members assumed that the defendant must have been guilty simply because they appeared in a court.

I have sat on juries on two separate callings, and the whole experience has left me with serious doubts about the whole justice system. The very poor standard of 'police evidence' in one case could only be described as appalling; unprofessional, and even criminal.


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 Post subject: Re: Cliff Richard - ?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:17 am 
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It must cast doubt when the Jury in the Harris case convicted him on at least one charge where there was no other evidence other than the witness who said he assaulted her.
The prosecution could not provide any other evidence printed, written or personal opinion that Harris was even at the place on the day in question. The witness could not even remember when the day in question was.

Maybe if they had acquitted on this charge as they should so clearly have done it would add credibility to the rest of it even with the desire for revenge in the wronged relationship and the other witness who had already sold her evidence to an Aussie paper.

The way they found this charge lets us get into the head of that jury, that on the basis he must have done the other offences he must have done this one.

I too have sat on a Jury in the past and there is always a small element who will argue, cajole and put their point of view across in the way that other should follow it.


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 Post subject: Re: Cliff Richard - ?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:34 am 
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Westonman wrote:
Jon wrote:
I agree with Dr David Green.
So do I.

At the risk of changing the subject, I have sat on a jury where some of the members, who appeared to be indigenous Brits, had difficulty following the case; and therefore were at a severe disadvantage when assessing and discussing the case in the jury room. At least two female jury members assumed that the defendant must have been guilty simply because they appeared in a court.

I have sat on juries on two separate callings, and the whole experience has left me with serious doubts about the whole justice system. The very poor standard of 'police evidence' in one case could only be described as appalling; unprofessional, and even criminal.

If we can't rely on our juries then perhaps we should follow South Africa and abolish 'trial by jury' and simply have a judge decide!


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 Post subject: Re: Cliff Richard - ?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:17 pm 
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Rich Kid wrote:
Westonman wrote:
Jon wrote:
I agree with Dr David Green.
So do I.

At the risk of changing the subject, I have sat on a jury where some of the members, who appeared to be indigenous Brits, had difficulty following the case; and therefore were at a severe disadvantage when assessing and discussing the case in the jury room. At least two female jury members assumed that the defendant must have been guilty simply because they appeared in a court.

I have sat on juries on two separate callings, and the whole experience has left me with serious doubts about the whole justice system. The very poor standard of 'police evidence' in one case could only be described as appalling; unprofessional, and even criminal.

If we can't rely on our juries then perhaps we should follow South Africa and abolish 'trial by jury' and simply have a judge decide!


And then we come back to Jon's comment somewhere that it can depend on who is the cleverest barrister!
(Maybe that is on the Rolf Harris thread).


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 Post subject: Re: Cliff Richard - ?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:29 pm 
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Rich Kid wrote:
Westonman wrote:
Jon wrote:
I agree with Dr David Green.
So do I.

At the risk of changing the subject, I have sat on a jury where some of the members, who appeared to be indigenous Brits, had difficulty following the case; and therefore were at a severe disadvantage when assessing and discussing the case in the jury room. At least two female jury members assumed that the defendant must have been guilty simply because they appeared in a court.

I have sat on juries on two separate callings, and the whole experience has left me with serious doubts about the whole justice system. The very poor standard of 'police evidence' in one case could only be described as appalling; unprofessional, and even criminal.

If we can't rely on our juries then perhaps we should follow South Africa and abolish 'trial by jury' and simply have a judge decide!


Jury's need to be directed by the judge who is after all the professional and experienced legal brain and who controls/directs the trial.

The judge in this case should have pointed out the weakness of the evidence of some of the charges but chose not to. The jury could then have weighed that evidence in balance with the judges remarks.

Read into that what you will. Conspiracy? Probably not but it does beg the question as to why celebs are under the microscope and judges/politicians are not. Plenty of smoke with still living politicians but I don't see their houses getting turned over live on BBC News.

Where judges and those on control follow the rules of Natural Justice then there is no fault with the system.

Where they do not the system is open to abuse.


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 Post subject: Re: Cliff Richard - ?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:10 pm 
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Location: Dog House
Unless the Judge is a closet paedophile in a paedophile case

_________________
Lets be careful out there !


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 Post subject: Re: Cliff Richard - ?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:19 pm 
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The point of my post above was to highlight the fact that simply being between 18 and 70 years of age is not necessarily the best qualification for sitting in judgement of the accused; the inability to read and speak English is not the only limiting factor affecting some jurors and disadvantaging the accused.

From my experience as a juror, the quality of evidence can also be greatly improved before the CPS accept there is a case to answer before a court.


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 Post subject: Re: Cliff Richard - ?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:24 pm 
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geezer466 wrote:
Jury's need to be directed by the judge who is after all the professional and experienced legal brain and who controls/directs the trial.

The judge in this case should have pointed out the weakness of the evidence of some of the charges but chose not to. The jury could then have weighed that evidence in balance with the judges remarks.
I would like to clarify my opinion on that statement. Juries only need directing by the judge concerning matters of law, not concerning the verdict. One case I sat on, the judge effectively tried to direct the jury to find the accused guilty. I think the judge was completely out of order.


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